the wto have used the word "PAROUSIA" selectvely t...

2007-12-08T13:21:00.000-08:00

the wto have used the word "PAROUSIA" selectvely to promote the doctrine of an invisible presence, the effect is that its "sheep" are asleep

matt24 nwt

v3 " tell us when will these things be and what will be the sign of your "PRESENCE" and the conclusion of the system of things"

v30 " and then the sign of the son of man will appear in heaven and all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in lament and they will see the son of man "COMING" on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory

so they CHOOSE to use presence in verse 3 to promote an "INVISIBLE PRESENCE"
and they choose to use "COMING" in verse 30 because presence would make the scripture nonsense.

the reality is that they have made a nonsense of v3 and they are asleep to the genuine arrival of Christ in all his glory with all his angels

just a thought
how many thieves have ever broke into a house in such numbers with such a visible presence and making such a noise?

none! the thief like arrival is simply a warning to stay awake in expectation of his coming after which he will be present.

wake up my friends.

Hi!,I just thought I'd present you with a differen...

2007-03-15T04:36:00.000-07:00

Hi!,

I just thought I'd present you with a different view of the situation. One closely related to what the Bible actually says:

Days of the Son of Man

First lets be clear as to what the 'Days of the Son of Man' are and what the 'Revealing of the Son of Man' is:

New World Translation
Luke 17:26-28
26 Moreover, just as it occur"red" in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of man:
27 they were eating, they were drinking, men were marrying, women were being given in marriage, until that day when Noah ente"red" into the ark, and the flood arrived and destroyed them all.
28 Likewise, just as it occur"red" in the days of Lot: they were eating, they were drinking, they were buying, they were selling, they were planting, they were building.

So according to Luke 17:26, 27 the 'Days of the Son of Man' are likened to an extended period of eating and drinking that occurs before everyone other than Noah and his family are destroyed. And likewise Luke 17:28 compares the 'Days of the Son of Man' to a period of eating and drinking and planting and building in Sodom.

So the 'Days of the Son of Man' clearly relate to a period when everyone is going about their normal business before an impending destruction is to occur.

Revealing of the Son of Man

Now let us consider how the account goes on to explain what is the 'Revealing of the Son of Man':

New World Translation
Luke 17:29, 30
29 But on the day that Lot came out of Sod´om it rained fire and sulphur from heaven and destroyed them all.
30 The same way it will be on that day when the Son of man is to be revealed.

So clearly the 'Revealing of the Son of Man' relates to the destruction itself which occurs after the period of eating and drinking.

The critical point in the text between the emphasis upon the 'Days' and the emphasis upon the 'Revealing' is the word 'But' at the beginning of Luke 17:29. This is the point in the text where Jesus finishes drawing our attention to the 'Days' and brings home the meaning of the 'Revealing'.

How much clearer can it be? We have two events:

(1) Days of the Son of Man - period of eating and drinking etc...
(2) Revealing of the Son of Man - final destruction of the eaters and the drinkers etc...

Presence [Coming - KJV] of the Son of Man

On top of this in the account of Matthew we learn that the 'Days of the Son of Man' are also called the 'presence of the Son of Man'

New World Translation
Matthew 24:37
37 For just as the days of Noah were, so the presence of the Son of man will be.

From this then we get point number three:

(3) presence of the Son of Man - period of eating and drinking etc... [see (1)] - equivalent term

Most people who use this scripture to show that Christ's presence (or Coming - KJV) will not be known, have presented it out of context. Indeed they have 'cut off' the beginning of the dialogue which enables us to know what he is actually referring to when he says this. Doing this leads one to believe that Jesus starts by stating there is a day and an hour that nobody knows and proceeds to tell you what it is.

This is false.

Jesus tells you about the event first of all and then goes on to tell you you do not know the day or the hour. When you cut off the beginning of Jesus' dialog you lose this vital point.

Let's quote it in context. At this point Jesus is actually relating the time of the end several times. Each time he uses a different illustration. Lets go through all of it.

New World Translation
Matthew 24:37
32 “Now learn from the fig tree as an illustration this point: Just as soon as its young branch grows tender and it puts forth leaves, YOU know that summer is near.
[see (1) & (3) - presence]

33 Likewise also YOU, when YOU see all these things, know that he is near at the doors.
[see (1) & (3) - presence]

34 Truly I say to YOU that this generation will by no means pass away until all these things occur.
[see (1) & (3) - presence]

35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will by no means pass away.
[see (2) - destruction]

36 “Concerning that day and hour nobody knows, neither the angels of the heavens nor the Son, but only the Father.
[see (2) - destruction]

After describing the 'presence' Jesus then describes the destruction and tells us we do not know the hour. He is clearly talking about the hour of the destruction. We know when the 'presence' will be because Jesus has just told us all the signs to look out for!
Jesus now goes on to relate the scenario again but using a different illustration. He uses the 'Days of Noah':

37 For just as the days of Noah were, so the presence of the Son of man will be.
[see (1) & (3) - presence]

38 For as they were in those days before the flood, eating and drinking, men marrying and women being given in marriage, until the day that Noah ente"red" into the ark;
[see (1) & (3) - presence]

39 and they took no note until the flood came and swept them all away, so the presence of the Son of man will be.
[see (1) & (3) - presence]

40 Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken along and the other be abandoned;
[see (2) - destruction]

41 two women will be grinding at the hand mill: one will be taken along and the other be abandoned.
[see (2) - destruction]

42 Keep on the watch, therefore, because YOU do not know on what day YOUR Lord is coming.
[see (2) - destruction]

Once again after talking about the 'presence' Jesus goes on to describe the 'destruction'. Once again he then tells us that we do not know on what day the 'destruction' will occur.

In context Jesus was clearly talking about the 'destruction' when he said we would not know the day or the hour. He had given us explicit signs to look out for the 'presence' he was obviously expecting us to know and recognize the 'presence' due to all the signs he was giving us. Otherwise why bother giving us signs?

So there is no scriptural bar to us gaining the knowledge of when Christ's presence (coming - KJV) would be. Only by quoting a portion of Matthew out of context is it possible to give the impression that this information regarding the 'presence' was 'divinely' hidden.

Jesus emphasized that his presence was just like a period of eating and drinking before Noah ente"red" into the Ark. It is his 'revealing' that is to be sudden, at an hour we do not know. It was his 'revealing' that is likened to the day Noah ente"red" the Ark with his family and the world was destroyed.

Comments on Hermeneutic Ministries.noncom: The Parousia

the wto have used the word "PAROUSIA" selectvely t...

Hi!,I just thought I'd present you with a differen...